DJI Ronin 4D Camera | 6K & 8K

[ahalpert]

The camera supports all the lenses in my collection but one: the 20mm f/1.8 G, 35mm f/1.4 GM, 55mm f/1.8, 50mm f/1.2 GM, Sigma 85mm f/1.4 DG DN - the narrative focal lengths. Only my 135mm f/1.8 GM is not supported but I'd never shoot with that focal length on a gimbal either, it's ridiculous! hehe .

who do you think shoots with sony photo lenses? Hint: not Messerschmidt.

Out of curiosity, how much gimbal operating do you currently do? I use my 70-180 on gimbal all the time, to great effect. I wouldn't hesitate to use the 135. And traditionally, 85mm is the longest prime (but not always, or there'll be a longer zoom) for shooting narrative in super 35, which equates to a 127.5mm FOV in FF... pretty close to the 135mm you're eschewing. Personally, I'd like to be able to do anything on gimbal i would want to do on dolly. And I've seen many steadicam ops flying large zoom ratio angenieuxs...

have you ever been serviced by dji or do you just know that they're close by?

 

[icarusfilm]

I totally agree this is not a feature film tool. High end doc is exactly where this will find a home. I shoot a lot of and produce “higher end docs” where traveling light and fast is important. For me this device is a welcome addition because it’s all ready out of the box doesn’t require assembly and disassembly every two days and has a dedicated camera and focusing system all built in. If I were to “a la carte” it with a gimbal a bunch of 3rd party accessories and say a s1h it would be at least as expensive but also enormously Fidelley.
no one in a higher end situation will want to deal with the limitations of the system.

I reached out to John Brawley on facebook for his thoughts on the 4D. He has working relationships with some of the DPs in the marketing material, and he said that they haven't been "testing" this on their shoots and that DJI just paid them to shoot "stuff" for a week. He said that the DPs they chose are funny because one doesn't operate and another doesn't actually DP anymore and has moved onto directing.

He thinks the camera is limiting in terms of lens weight and he doesn't like that it's a closed ecosystem because if anything breaks then you're at the mercy of DJI's terrible service and support.

All of which reinforces my belief that this tool will find a home more in high-end doc/corporate than in scripted drama. Which is fine, and more relevant to most on dvxuser. It's just funny to see all these products marketed for something that they don't do to appeal more to people who don't do that thing anyway

 

[jonpais]

who do you think shoots with sony photo lenses? Hint: not Messerschmidt.

I'll tell you who: Sony and Canon share 70% of the worldwide market, so there are plenty of Sony shooters out there - many of whom, like myself,
are ready to invest in a cinema camera and are heavily invested in e-mount glass.

Many of the world's cinema lens manufacturers offer E-mount, including
Sirui, SLR Magic, Zeiss, Fujinon, Schneider, Rokinon, Sigma, Tokina, DZOFilm and Meike, to name just a few.

While they don't manufacture cinema glass, I'll throw in Cosina Voigtlander simply because they make some of the
finest lenses in the world; and if I were a photographer into mechanical lenses, that'd be all the reason I needed to shoot Sony.

A search over at B&H Photo yields a couple hundred E-mount cine lenses compared to a mere dozen L-mount lenses and a few dozen RF lenses. LOL

The E-mount system is inarguably the most successful of any of the Japanese manufacturers when it comes to mirrorless mounts.
E-mount is the most mature of any of them.

The FX6, FX9, FX3 and a7s III have all been bestsellers over at N. America's largest independent electronics retailer since the day they
launched, and two of them happen to be Netflix approved, for whatever that's worth.

And E-mount lenses are being used on those cameras all the time.


So when someone asks 'who shoots with Sony photo lenses', I ask myself if they've been living under a rock.

I believe Erik said he shot with Leica on the Ronin if I'm not mistaken.
I downloaded his footage and it's very film like in texture and the colors are very rich, the skin tones beautiful.

Matthew Allard says shooters are more likely to use mounts like the Sony E-mount with the 4D, simply because there is a greater selection of lenses to choose from, and I have to agree with that statement. Naturally, because the 4D has several swappable mounts and very likely more are on the way, the number of supported lenses will only increase. And of course, if the camera is locked off, heavier lenses can be also used with the proper support. One reviewer showed such a setup using the Zeiss 21-100mm T2.9 zoom.

Brawley's right about sort of being locked into a system with the DJI - but on the flip side, there's no need to spend thousands
of dollars on accessories to get started like with some other cinema cameras (Komodo, for example) - and I can save a ton on glass.
From what I understand, some batteries (such as the TB50) and accessories from other DJI products are also compatible.

And because the 4D shoots ProRes RAW, it should be a breeze using the DJI alongside my a7s III.
The footage appears to be very flexible from the files I downloaded.
It is amusing to see the new threads over at BM pleading with them to make a camera with wireless transmission and LIDAR.

I can see this camera being used on all types of jobs, from documentary and music videos to shooting vehicles (or from moving vehicles) and anywhere involving
fast moving action or camera movement.

That wireless transmission rocks. That DJI was able to squeeze so many mechanical ND filters in the tiny 'brain' is remarkable. And unlike those of another camera manufacturer, there is no noticeable color shift when using them! Mechanical lenses function just like AF lenses once they're calibrated. The carbon fiber/magnesium alloy body seems rugged enough to withstand the tough kinds of situations it is likely to encounter.

The Ronin faces stiff competition in the form of traditional cinema cameras that can shoot 6K or 8K, but none can boast of all of the
innovative features of the 4D and none ever will - because they're unable to think out of the box.

 

[ahalpert]

I think you misunderstand me, Jon. I'll break it down:

1. The marketing materials are (characteristically) misleading because...

2. They use famous DPs to claim that the product is worthy of the shoots they do, which I find questionable because...

3. I don't think that a product that can only handle 800-gram lenses is going to end up shooting big-budget stuff because...

4. Lenses are possibly the most important part of the image-making chain and...

5. Cinema lenses are typically much heavier than photo lenses. I wager that the more generous weight restrictions are responsible for the vast majority of quality and function difference between cinema and photo lenses because they make use of that extra weight to eliminate focus breathing and further correct aberrations as well as create a more durable and robust unit.

The lightest of the arri signature primes, for example, boasts of having "light 4 lb weight":



Obviously tons of people own e-mount lenses, including myself. Getting to use my new lenses on the 4D was one of the first thoughts that came to mind.

e-mount lens users just typically shoot doc/corporate, not union scripted drama. That was my point.

Im sure you will enjoy your 4D. Personally, I buy gear in spite of its flaws or drawbacks, not because i think that it's flawless. And I surely want to know what those drawbacks are in advance

 

[jonpais]

Big deal. No one here is shooting Hollywood blockbusters or Netflix Originals anyhow.

Most mortals are doing stuff like weddings, sports and fitness, travel, documentary, corporate, product photography, food and entertainment, music videos, nature and wildlife, real estate, talking heads... whatever it takes to put food on the table.

There are plenty of options out there when it comes to lenses. One thing I'll bet though, is that no one here is shooting with that monstrosity you wasted your time making a screenshot of.

Get over it.

 

[ahalpert]

Yes! We agree!

Except why would you call that lens a monstrosity? I haven't looked into them but they're probably lovely

 

[jonpais]

Does anyone think it would be possible to accomplish a push-in shot like this with the 4D?

In the video, the camera/dolly quickly pushes in to a young woman sitting on the sofa to frame her face. (at 2'36")

I've seen Jesse Driftwood pull off far more challenging stuff handheld - even going so far as switching lenses mid-shot! - then using stabilization and other wizardry in post to make it seamlessly fit together.

 

[Joshua Milligan]

I think this is a neat invention and it helps to push the industry forward for product development. That being said, I don’t see a camera like this being anyone’s primary camera. I don’t know about you all, but I don’t think every single shot needs to be on a gimbal. Oftentimes the handheld look is desired.

 

[ahalpert]

I think this is a neat invention and it helps to push the industry forward for product development. That being said, I don’t see a camera like this being anyone’s primary camera. I don’t know about you all, but I don’t think every single shot needs to be on a gimbal. Oftentimes the handheld look is desired.

Well in theory you could lock up the gimbal mechanism and use it on a tripod or handheld, although I imagine there might be some drawbacks to that.

But really I only floated the idea because the 4D costs as much as some cameras I'm considering buying as an A camera in the future, so I was wondering if I could buy this instead and get great gimbal capabilities as well.

The handheld look of course is a basic part of camera vocabulary and I wouldn't want to make a purchase that prevented me from ever using it, even though i feel like it's overused and often just for ease and speed.

But the point is sort of that handheld shooting is cheaper and easier to achieve, or at least more reliant on one's technique and practice. Whereas perfectly smooth movements can be more difficult to achieve and more reliant on expensive technology

EDIT: of course, shooting handheld isn't cheap or simple if you're using a very heavy rig or shooting for long durations. but it is with the cameras I own or am considering buying

 

[Run&Gun]

Well in theory you could lock up the gimbal mechanism and use it on a tripod or handheld, although I imagine there might be some drawbacks to that.

But really I only floated the idea because the 4D costs as much as some cameras I'm considering buying as an A camera in the future, so I was wondering if I could buy this instead and get great gimbal capabilities as well.

The handheld look of course is a basic part of camera vocabulary and I wouldn't want to make a purchase that prevented me from ever using it, even though i feel like it's overused and often just for ease and speed.

But the point is sort of that handheld shooting is cheaper and easier to achieve, or at least more reliant on one's technique and practice. Whereas perfectly smooth movements can be more difficult to achieve and more reliant on expensive technology

EDIT: of course, shooting handheld isn't cheap or simple if you're using a very heavy rig or shooting for long durations. but it is with the cameras I own or am considering buying

You just described the majority of electronic gimbal usage.

 

[stewhem]

Big deal. No one here is shooting... Netflix Originals anyhow.

Oh, really?

 

[ahalpert]

You just described the majority of electronic gimbal usage.

Probably, but if you're gonna do it, you want it to look as good as possible. And it's not a foregone conclusion you'll overuse it. That's up to you

 

[kevin baggott]

live now: panel discussion on the Ronin 4D.
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/explora...49672#livevent

 

[Run&Gun]

Probably, but if you're gonna do it, you want it to look as good as possible. And it's not a foregone conclusion you'll overuse it. That's up to you

My comment was more general in nature and not specific to myself or necessarily anyone else on here. That being said, gimbals are overused.

 

[ahalpert]

My comment was more general in nature and not specific to myself or necessarily anyone else on here. That being said, gimbals are overused.

Well, I didn't take it personally if that's what you mean. But my feeling is that I would often like to have a dolly, or a jib, or a crane to take a shot... and I end up doing it handheld or gimbal because of time/equipment/manpower constraints. (I mean, I haven't personally shot on actual dolly track in several years.)

of course, it all depends on the effect you want want to achieve. But as an editor for my most frequent client, I spend a lot of time stabilizing other shooters' handheld footage and the client usually isn't 100% happy with the end result. Even when I think the handheld motion and feel looks nice, they're not always into it. They're starting to hire me more to handle coverage on gimbal that they used to do handheld. There is control and input you have handheld that you don't have on gimbal, and I try the best I can to operate carefully and precisely. But all in all, this particular client doesn't like shakiness. Every type of client has different goals

EDIT: I would also add that I'm often in situations where I'm getting mostly static shots with a gimbal and using it almost like a monopod. a monopod has some advantages, but the gimbal is faster to resposition and can break out into a move at any time. most of my shoots these days are a mix of tripod and gimbal, with some slider

 

[jonpais]

As far as gimbals go, I see young filmmakers flying their cameras on gimbals all the time.
What I don't see is young filmmakers shooting Pockets or alpha cameras handheld.
Camera shake is ugly. If anyone here has a video on YT that they've personally shot handheld
with a Pocket (meaning handheld, no support whatsoever), I'd love to see it - NOT!!!

Concerning lens compatibility (it's pretty extensive):

The 4D supports a ton of lenses, and the number of compatible lenses will grow.
A bunch of Leitz Summicron, Noctilux and Summilux cine lenses, from 21 to 90mm.
The Leitz cine lenses go for around 10 grand apiece, so not toys.
A heap of E-mount lenses.
The popular Tamron 17-28 and 28-75 that are already in many Sony shooters' bags.
The Apo Lanthar 65mm f/2, a gorgeous macro lens that can also be used for portraiture.
THE ZEISS BATIS 135MM f/2.8. Here's your narrative lens. LOL
and on and on....

https://dronereviewsandnews.com/what...nin-4d-camera/

Your manual lenses become autofocus lenses with LIDAR.
Once a lens is calibrated (5 focus points are entered), the information is stored and there's no need to
recalibrate when changing lenses.

Latency on the wireless transmission is phenomenal (extremely low).
I've seen wireless transmission systems with follow focus that cost as much as the 4D.

Just as with any camera, if weight is an issue over time, the 4D can be attached to an easy rig, which I'm guessing most of us have.
You just have to be careful not to block the sensors at the bottom of the camera (don't hold the camera right up against your chest).

In a ZOOM talk with B&H, Nino Leitner says the skin tones look great and the footage doesn't look too digital,
which were my impressions after playing around with a couple of clips downloaded from DJI's website. Nino does say he saw
rolling shutter on the camera. Having watched the clip he's referring to, it was the ugliest I've ever seen in my life -
and the only instance I recall seeing in his or anyone else's videos.

 

[Guest]

hearing the DR on this camera is beastly. better than Komodo. but colors are not at that Venice/Arri level apparently.

but that certainly makes this camera a contender.

 

[jonpais]

Dream lens from Make Art Now

 

[Noel Evans]

hearing the DR on this camera is beastly. better than Komodo. but colors are not at that Venice/Arri level apparently.

but that certainly makes this camera a contender.

I'll be waiting to see the actual numbers from CineD on this one. They're numbers are tough, but at least they're consistent across all cameras so it provides a nice reference point.

I am warming to this camera. I think in certain situations it will be phenomenal. I also imagine this to be the ultimate camera for wedding / live shooting if they there's something to take the weight like an easy rig etc. Nether of which I shoot, but they seem to be two markets where gimbal dominates these days.

 

[spinkscapes]

Probably a bit rich for most wedding videographers.
Although in principle I love the idea of it for the permanent gimbal camera (assuming the auto focus is consistently good).